XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension build?

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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Tomcat65 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:44 am

Purple Haze wrote:The suspension type as stated for the XR PRO is a horst link four bar. Various iterations are also horst link four bar. Its important because this type of suspension is extremely good at cancelling out vibration. The other various types simply will not. The above picture tomcat is a horst link.


As stated by whom, you?..
idiot.
Specialized holds the patent on the Horst link suspension. The white Specialized S-Works Enduro 29 in the top picture is a Horst link. The XR-Pro, is a primitively simple, single pivot 4 link suspension.

How many 4 bar suspension designs are out there?
DW-link: Double pivot point, 4 bar, no rear axle link. The pivot and the rocker arms move together in the same direction, sometimes described as parallel movement, but the pivot and rocker are not actually parallel. A little like a car with double a arm suspension.
Horst-link: Single pivot at bottom bracket, rear link below the axle with the axle mounted to the seat stays.
ICT: Pivot usually above the bottom bracket, long rocker arm @ 2:1, the chainstay attachment points force the rear wheel rearward on impact and can stress the chain if it's the least bit too tight.
CVA: Double pivot below the bottom bracket, no rear axle link, solid rear a-frame. Niner claims this design is 29'er specific, the rocker and double pivot counter each other, but the angle of the rear a-frame changes on impact
Maestro: Double pivot above the bottom bracket, no rear axle link, solid a-frame. Supposedly cancels out brake influence on the suspension.
VPP: Double pivot above the bottom bracket, no rear axle link, solid a-frame. Supposedly, nearly equal length and movement, of top and bottom rocker, and bottom pivot, to counter each other for a smoother working suspension.
Single pivot 4 link: XR-Pro and Genesis V2100
ETS: Double pivot above the bottom bracket, nearly parallel rocker and pivot, solid a-frame. The chainstays are high above the axle.

Everything makes a difference. The axle on the XR-Pro swings on a pivot behind the bottom bracket. Dead level, the chain is at full extension, on impact, or unweighted, the chain will be slightly more slack. It's a very simple 4 link suspension, but it's absolutely not a true Horst suspension.

in my effort to simplify the description of the different suspension systems, I am sure I left out many details, but identifying these different suspensions by sight, will obviously not always be accurate, which is kind of my point. Apologies if I left out your favorite details on any of the descriptions.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Purple Haze » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:11 am

https://www.google.ch/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 4097559895 Its the travel action and the pivot points on the XR PRO are in reverse but its still a horst as is the blackcomb. The patent ran out years ago. Its not a true four bar . The blue line represents the actions and is not the pivot point.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Tomcat65 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:54 pm

Purple Haze wrote:https://www.google.ch/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiCq6jS2f_XAhWF1xQKHZJWBlEQjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fffden-2.phys.uaf.edu%2F211_fall2010.web.dir%2FMichael_Stanfill%2FFourBar.html&psig=AOvVaw13byif8rb11uTsK3reK1M7&ust=1513004097559895 Its the travel action and the pivot points on the XR PRO are in reverse but its still a horst as is the blackcomb. The patent ran out years ago. Its not a true four bar . The blue line represents the actions and is not the pivot point.


Here's a direct quote from the very link you posted.
You idiot.

"The only difference is where the pivot is mounted near the axle. If the link is above or behind the axle, with the axle attached to the chain stay, it is considered a bona fide single pivot"
"If the pivot is directly in front of the rear axle, with the axle attached to the seat stay, it is called a Horst link."
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Purple Haze » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:46 pm

You didn't look at the diagram and no name calling, but you must be doing this on purpose. You just fail to understand, but whatever.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Purple Haze » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:14 pm

https://www.google.ch/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 3787989563 Maybe this clarifies the issue a little better. Think more about the action it is performing.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Tomcat65 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:22 pm

LOL..
You must not be looking at what you're linking me to. You have solidly proven my point.
Horst link is an engineering design that places the rear axle on the seat stays, and the chainstay links in front of the axle. This affects the way the whole thing rides. regardless of the shock position.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby dddd » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:40 am

Be wary of the source of information, since that Google link incorrectly states that the "issue" with the Horst design is that braking loads are fed into the seat stays, when in fact the design was created mainly to do that, which improves braking.

While that design's patent has by now expired, and is being picked up for free by an increasing number of makers, Trek in the mean time created the same effect by pivoting their design's seat stays concentric to the rear axle and similarly mounting the brake caliper to the seatstay. More difficult to do, but they seem to have stuck with it instead of borrowing from the Horst design now that the patent has expired.

And Tom's right about the pivot being ahead of the axle along the chainstays or swingarm. The upper part of the "four bar" linkage only provides A) actuation to the shock and B) support for resisting the twisting loads on the rear axle, but doesn't much affect axle path and only affects braking to the extent that different seatstay motion paths can be created using whatever linkage geometry is chosen. In fact, the earliest genuine Horst-link, AMP-branded bikes simply attached the shock directly inline to the seatstays as a rigid McPherson-strut, which fed bending loads into the shock itself, and Pro-Flex would do the same thing but with the lower end of the seatstays pivoted on top of a conventional swingarm, so their brakes had to be mounted directly to the swingarm.

The Horst design actually has almost no effect at all on the axle path versus a single pivot, as the pivot is usually very close to the axle. Advertising that touted this was misleading and all too common; ...it was more about getting the brake's loads to "float with" instead of "jack" the suspension movement, though it did also give added design freedom as to the exact location of the main pivot near the bb.

I had the pleasure of knowing and riding with some of the early suspension designers like Tom White and Dave Ijams back in Southern California in the mid-1990's, a time when all sorts of design approaches were being put forward. The Interbike trade show also was held there during those years, which I attended religiously. I raced a Pro-Flex then because it was so simple and thus light and low on maintenance requirements, though today that single-pivot design is more used on bbb's than on performance bikes.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Chadden » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:45 pm

what did you do to my thread?
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby orvil » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:02 pm

Chadden wrote:what did you do to my thread?

Exactly!! I apologize even though I never replied.
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Re: XR Pro? Warrior 3.2? Best budget 29er duel suspension bu

Postby Purple Haze » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:58 am

Sorry, I'm sticking with my original answer of the suspension is better on the XR PRO period.
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